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Immigration chat groups and forums - help or hindrance?

by Iain Macleod 17. July 2009 00:43

I have somehow been subscribed to one of these immigration chat group/forum things which I have come to loathe. I have tried to unsubscribe but can’t (that is another story) and for the sake of my mental health have told the computer to treat them as junk. For some reason this week I have received a whole lot more. This particular one allows ex-pat South Africans to give freely of their migration experience and dish out advice. While the world wide web has opened up new channels for communication and access to knowledge in ways we could only dream about as recently as a decade ago I am troubled by much of the advice given because it is wrong. Way wrong. And in this game inaccurate advice robs potential migrants of futures in this country.

For example this week someone who is coming to live here asked a simple question about who is entitled to what in terms of access to public health cover in New Zealand. A pretty common question that we get all the time in our business. I read six different pieces of advice from “until you have permanent residence you are not covered” to “if you have a work permit you are covered”, to “everyone who is legal in New Zealand is covered”. All were wrong yet somewhere on the other side of the planet was a person possibly relying on this advice. One hopes that the person who asked the question was smart enough to work out that six different answers from six different people was enough to convince him he should find a more credible source of advice!

But on it goes. Someone else asked a few days ago if they should come to New Zealand without a job and try and find one when here (they needed the points to get their permanent residence only through having the job). The floodgates opened. Many said that South Africans were being ‘deported’ because they had lost their jobs, others said that there is a ‘kiwis first’ attitude (as if that was something new), that ‘no one is getting jobs here’, that ‘you should wait till the recession is over’. That is in the same week as Immagine New Zealand got a fabricator/welder from the Philippines a work permit, a South African security guard (minimum wage and unskilled) a work permit in that role and an ex-South African share trader a work permit as a farm worker/shepherd in the South Island despite never having worked on a farm in his life. All had come over in the last few months during the recession and found work. I have heard stories and read newspaper reports of migrants in all three of these occupations being denied work permits, extensions to work permits and being asked to leave New Zealand in recent times because there are enough locals to fill these sorts of positions. Yet those that relied on our advice are here with futures. I know there are fabricator/welders, security guards and even farm workers who have not had work permits renewed by the Immigration Department because it was believed that New Zealanders 'should be able to fill the position'. That doesn't mean it is not possible howwever with the right advice and guidance!

The reality is almost all our clients who have needed jobs to file work and residence permits have got them having burned their bridges at home in recent months and flown here during the worst recession for fifty years. How can this be when others are filling the online pages of these chat groups with tales of woe and disaster? It lies in the quality of the advice that the migrant is in possession of and with Immagine New Zealand what they get is bankable.

These chats groups and forums are in my view dangerous on so many levels (yet potentially very valuable). Dangerous because participants overwhelmingly take their own personal experience and what happened to them and assume the same will happen to everyone else. And those looking for free advice are willing consumers.

Time after time I have seen someone ask a question, get completely wrong advice but post a “big thanks” in response. And a shiver goes down my spine.

I used to try and offer professional advice to users of this particular group but gave up. I reaslised that people that use these forums are generally not after professional advice as that may come with an invoice attached. What they get is what they are paying for. Low quality advice at the cheapest possible price. When it comes to matters of fact rather than opinion I wish the members of these groups would understand that they often don’t know as much as they think they know about New Zealand immigration policy and procedures and what happened to them or their family may not happen to everyone else.

There is no accountability or responsibility that comes with providing this advice. Clearly it is well intentioned but I know that would be migrants often rely on it.

I shudder at the thought that people rely on these forums to plan their futures.

Comments

10/3/2009 1:01:07 PM #

When you mention this
"That doesn't mean it is not possible howwever with the right advice and guidance!"

What do you actually mean. The rules of immigration NZ is a well drafted rules. It is black and white. Either someone is given a work visa or someone is not. With this statement are you trying to say that with your right advice and guidence you can bend the rules. This is what this statement comes across as. Grow up kiddo.

suck you New Zealand | Reply

10/3/2009 1:14:33 PM #

What I mean is INZ is inconsistent in both the interpretation and implementation of what appear to be 'black and white' rules. As a consequence people offering well intentioned advice in chat groups and forums miss this point even though they are trying to be helpful. Anyone who works as a licensed adviser in this industry learned a long time ago that what the rule book says and what can happen in terms of visa and permit outcomes can and often is two different things. My point about advisers like us is that we are often able to effect positive outcomes on the same information that applicants have tried and failed to secure for themselves. You have to ask yourself why that is if as you suggest the rules are so clear. And why advisers like those of us here at Immagine New Zealand almost never have applications declined but when viewed overall the decline rate of applications presented by the do it yourself brigade is so high. Just check the stats - they are all there on the Government's website. If you can find it.

Iain MacLeod New Zealand | Reply

11/15/2009 7:21:49 AM #

Hi Iain,
Very often the views expressed are exactly that - the personal & polarised view of that migrants experience.  Whether good or bad.  There are a few of us out there providing a moderate view, NZ can be good & bad, however that doesn't invalidate sharing the experience.

People most experienced with any system are those going through it themselves.  People are pretty clear the rules change every five minutes, it's why they look for advice from the forums.  There are rules, then there's the application of those rules - and the latter isn't black and white - even if the rules are supposed to be.

I actually heard the (former) immigration minister Mr Cunliffe tell a public audience at an international confernece in NZ that they are very welcome to stay for a holiday, look around at jobs while they are here, and encouraged them to apply - even though they're all on visitors visas.
When you get the (then) current immigration minister encouraging you to ignore immigration law - what is anyone supposed to think?

AH New Zealand | Reply

11/15/2009 8:13:51 AM #

It is a good point - when Ministers advise people to effectively break the law because the law is stupid surely his responsibility is to change the law! I am not sure that just because a migrant is caught up in the process of a visa however they are the best qualified to offer advice to others. For starters it is now a crime under the Immigration Advisers Act 2007 but more than that the quality of the advice on specific aspects of immigration policy sends shivers up my spine to the point where I try to avoid reading it. Incorrect advice is incorrect advice regardless of how well intentioned it is. The trouble is most people who are on the receiving end of the advice don't know when it is right or when it is wrong. To act upon inaccurate advice in this complex legal process is courting disaster.

Iain MacLeod New Zealand | Reply

12/9/2009 10:55:29 PM #

I should probably clearly state at the outset that I totally object to the IALA and am trying to get it scrapped Smile That being said - I do like what I have seen of your posts and agree with much of what you say.

I thought it might interest you to know that as far as the IAA is concerned (and they have now published this as official guidance) - forum posters are not breaking any laws. From converstations I have had with the IAA - it comes down to the fact that people such as those you talk about above are not acting "systematically" because they have not checked thier facts before they answer a question.

I on the other hand am breaking the law (or was at least) because when someone asks me a question - I do not rely soley on what I THINK the answer is - but I go and check. While I did pass on my experience (and that will always be somewhat outside the "rules" because INZ so often make things up as they go along) - I always did background reseach to make sure i was not relying just on experience.

This is what makes me risk 7 years in jail????

I too have seen a mountain of incorrect advice going out - (some of it from licenced agents and a huge amount form INZ staffers)  - and yet the IAA wont do anything about it anyway. For example: While we were going thorugh the Medical Asessment process - it was amazing how many people on just one forum claimed that if the "No Abnormal Findings" box was ticked - you had "passed" the medical.

Regarding who should be able to give advice: if this law stands then I look farward to non-qualified people having to stop giving medical advice - something that is inherently more "dangerous" than people getting crap immigration advice. There is no reason on earth why Immigration agents should have this kind of protection when professionals do not.

Avalon United Kingdom | Reply

12/9/2009 11:12:21 PM #

It is interesting isn't it? The intent of this law was to protect 'vulnerable' migrants from incorrect advice which was a noble intention and did reflect the fact that there are plenty of people offering incorrect advice. Especially the Immigration Department but that is another story.

Turning that noble intent into a practical working law has proven a real challenge and I suspect it is not actually possible to achieve because there is real difficulties in identifying just what is immigration advice and policing it.

From my perspective these chat groups and forums where the blind (permanent residents) lead the blind (wannabe permanent residents) even with the greatest of good intent are giving advice as defined by the Act and can be just as damaging. Therefore it is my view they should be stopped from doing so if the law is to have integrity. But then of freedom of speech? What then of the right to help others out? In truth the law is unworkable in totality.

If I was really paranoid I might conclude that the only reason we ended up with this law was because the Labour led Government was intent on pushing the private sector out of giving immigration advice and forcing all applicants to deal with the Department. Common sense however prevailed and the irony of such a viewpoint is we only exist commercailly to offer advice because the Departmtent is so bad at providing it themselves! One suspects someone on the inside may have pointed this out to those drafting the law.

The fact remains we still have bad advice being given by licensed advisers (I cannot beleive some of the people that are being given limited licenses) but this Act has eliminated a significant number of them so it has to be said it has gone some way toward achieving its goal.

Now the IAA has to find away of dealing with what is, indisputably, immigration advice given in a systemic way by the serial chat group and forum users. I am just not sure how.

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